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Behind the Bullet: .257 Roberts by PHILIP MASSARO (My favorite centerfire cartridge! Grumpy)

BTB 257 Roberts Lead

Ol’ Bob. Mention that name around a campfire discussion, and you’ll have the attention of those hunters with a bit of snow on the roof, though the younger generations may look a bit puzzled. Bob certainly has lost popularity of late, but those who still take him afield each fall just quietly go about their business, accurately placing shots and taking game without destroying any more meat than is necessary.

Perhaps the recent infatuation with 6.5mm cartridges will prove to be the nail in the coffin for Bob, but then again, we may just see a resurgence in the classic cartridge; after all, we’re still shooting .30-30s and .45-70s.

.257 Roberts Headstamp

America’s love of .25-caliber cartridges goes back well over a century, hearkening back to the .25-20 and .25-35 of the late 19th century, and the .250-3000 Savage of the early part of the 20th century. Wildcatters went crazy in the early decades of the 1900s, experimenting with the great cartridges developed right around the turn of the century, like the .30-06 Springfield, .300 Savage and 7x57mm Mauser.

Townsend Whelen, A.O. Neider and Elmer Keith all had sound designs which became legitimate cartridges, as did Ned Roberts. Roberts certainly did have a case based on the 7x57mm Mauser necked down to hold .257-inch diameter bullets, but by the time Remington picked up the cartridge for commercial production in 1934, the dimensions had changed slightly.

Where Roberts’ design had a 15-degree shoulder, Remington reverted back to the 20-degree, 45-minute shoulder of the parent case. A case length of 2.235 inches and a cartridge overall length of 2.780 inches allow the Bob to fit easily in a long-action rifle receiver, and the 1:10” twist rate will stabilize bullets up to 120 grains.

The cartridge was offered in the Remington Model 30 and the Winchester Model 54, not to mention being one of the first chambering in the Winchester Model 70 upon its release in 1936. According to Philip B. Sharpe’s classic book Complete Guide to Handloading (Third Edition, Second Revision), listed the specs for the .257 Roberts were an 87-grain bullet at 3100 fps, a 100-grain bullet at 2800 fps and a 117-grain bullet at 2550 fps.

.257 Roberts Hornady 117-grain Superformance Ammunition

The round nosed 117-grain bullet was a good choice for deer and similar-sized game, but wasn’t exactly the most efficient choice for downrange work. A couple decades after its debut, the .257 Roberts would be challenged by the .243 Winchester and Remington’s own .244, which is ironically based on the Bob and its 7x57mm Mauser father.

The late 1940s and 1950s saw a huge wave of new cartridges and the Bob’s popularity started to wane. Simply put, the cartridge was outshined by the likes of the .280 Remington, .308 Winchester, and .284 Winchester. But the 1980s would give the Bob a new lease on life, as the cartridge would receive a facelift in the guise of the .257 Roberts +P ammunition, loaded to a higher pressure than the original ammunition, and changing the profile of the cartridge.

In the +P variety, the .257 Roberts will push the 100-grain bullets at 3000 fps and the 117-grain bullets at 2945 fps, nipping at the heels of the speedy .25-06 Remington in its regular guise. And, even in its +P guise, the .257 Roberts is easy on the shoulder, making it a wonderful choice for deer and pronghorn antelope at sane hunting ranges; the Hornady 117-grain Superformance load will retain over 1,000 ft.-lbs. of energy at 400 yards. That load—when zeroed at 200 yards—will print 7.3 inches low at 300 yards, and 21.4 inches low at 400 yards, giving a trajectory highly reminiscent of the .308 Winchester or .30-06 Springfield.

.257 Roberts Cartridge Headstamp

Recently, rifles chambered for the .257 Roberts include different iterations of the Winchester Model 70, the Ruger Model 77 and No.1 single-shot rifle, and the Kimber Hunter model, in addition to a good number of custom guns. Being based on the 7x57mm Mauser, which is right at home in the 98 Mauser rifle, there are plenty of platforms for a custom rifle which would fit the bill perfectly: namely the multitude of Mauser 98s still available on the used market.

Where it is clear that the choices of factory-loaded ammunition are few, the .257 Roberts is a great choice for those who handload ammunition. Dies are readily available from the major companies including Redding, RCBS, Hornady, Lyman and Lee, and component brass can be made—if needs be—from the plentiful 7x57mm Mauser cases.

Nearly all bullet manufacturers make .25-caliber projectiles, as the .25-06 Remington and .257 Weatherby Magnum still have devout followers. Any good large rifle primer will fit the bill—I’ve had great results with both CCI 200 and Federal’s 210—and I’d look to medium-burning rifle powders like IMR 4064, Hodgdon’s VARGET and H380Alliant’s RL15, all the way to the slower powders like IMR 4350 and H414, to the slowest choices like IMR 7828 with the heavier bullet choices.

.257 Roberts Federal Custom Shop Ammunition

Has the sun set on the .257 Roberts? And will we see this excellent design fade into absolute obscurity? I, for one, hope the answer to both questions is a resounding no. The .257 Roberts is my favorite of the quarter-bore cartridges, giving an excellent blend of striking power and user friendliness. The 6.5mm cartridges offer an advantage of heavier bullet weight—the Creedmoor tops at 140 grains but the 6.5×55 Swede and 6.5-284 Norma happily handle the 156-grain slugs—and have been a real threat to the .25-calibers of late.

But, the beauty of being an American hunter and gun owner is that we can own all sorts of different rifles, cartridges and calibers, and that will be an important factor in keeping the .257 Roberts alive. Kudos to Ned Roberts for the initial design, as well as to Remington who has always had the ability to recognize the best wildcats and bring them to the shooting masses. If you have a .257 Roberts, see if you can get it out in the field, and if you have the opportunity to buy a rifle so chambered, I suggest the same. I’ll wager you’ll become a fast fan of the cartridge.

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1886 Winchester Original . 45-70

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Can the .264 Win. Mag. Rise from the Dead? by Ron Spomer

 

The .264 Winchester Magnum is a 6.5mm cartridge that was ahead of its time when created in 1958. It slipped into a coma in the mid-1960s and has been at death’s door ever since. But it could revive, perhaps even thrive because it produces better ballistics than all but one or two of the current crop of 6.5mms.

Given today’s mania over all things 6.5mm, the .264 Winchester Magnum should be a top performer in these long-reach hunting rifles everyone seems to covet. This belted magnum cartridge bests the 6.5 Creedmoor by about 400 fps. That’s like stepping from a .308 Winchester to a .300 Winchester Magnum in performance improvement. If you want a 6.5mm with flat trajectory, maximum power, and minimum wind deflection, you want a closer look at the .264 Win. Mag.

Despite its 21st century ballistic performance, the .264 Win. Mag. is old. Many would say doddering. They’d be wrong. With today’s powders and bullets, it could finally realize its rich potential. Before that can happen, however, more shooters need to understand the cartridge. And more ammunition manufacturers need to begin loading to reach that potential. Currently, Winchester doesn’t even come close, limiting its .264 Win. Mag. to just one load, a 140-grain Power Point (B.C. .384) at 3,030 fps. Nosler does a much better job with a variety of great loads featuring bullets from 100 to 140 grains. Hornady has one load pushing a 140-grain InterLock with a B.C. of .465. This is an adequate start, but a good handloader will get the most from the .264 Win. Mag. because, ballistically, anything the 6.5 Creedmoor can do, the .264 Winchester Magnum can blow out of the water.

 

See the family resemblance? The .264 Winchester Magnum may have been cut and squeezed to shape from a .300 H&H or .375 H&H, but it hardly matters. The belted head diameter is its foundation.

 

The quickest route to appreciating the .264 Winchester Magnum is through the 7mm Remington Magnum. Both cartridges were formed from the belted .375 H&H Magnum case. You can nitpick and say it was the .300 H&H Magnum case, but that was itself squeezed down from the .375 case. What matters is the head diameter, that belt around it, and the basic body diameter. You can easily reshape the length, neck diameter, shoulder angle, and taper of a case, but not its head diameter.

The belted .532-inch head of Holland & Holland’s .375 of 1912 is considerably wider than the .473-inch head of the .30-06 Springfield, which is what the 6.5 Creedmoor stands on. The .264 Win. Mag. case is .58-inch longer than the Creedmoor, too. It fits the same actions as the .270 Win. and .30-06. Bigger case, more powder . . . Boom. There you go.

Roy Weatherby mined this volume beginning with his .270 Wby. Mag. in 1943. Winchester came to the .375 belted magnum party in 1956 with the release of its .458 Win. Mag. They straightened the .375’s walls and cut its length to two and a half inches for an easy fit into Model 70 magazines. In 1958, they necked this big case down to create the .338 Win. Mag. and then necked it even smaller to make the .264 Win. Mag. Few hit the streets until 1959, but then . . .

 

When the .264 Winchester Magnum first appeared, Winchester’s ammo boxes looked something like this. Yeah, it’s an old cartridge.

 

Right away, this “overbore” belted magnum created a stir. It came in a M70 Westerner rifle with a 26-inch barrel. Winchester advertised muzzle velocity at 3,200 fps with a 140-grain, .264-inch-diameter bullet. SAAMI specifications for the cartridge allowed it a maximum pressure of 64,000 psi—same as the .300 Win. Mag., which came later.

With these numbers, the .264 Winchester Magnum was the immediate long-range, high-velocity, flat-trajectory answer to the western hunter’s prayers. And it came in affordable M70 rifles. The cartridge and rifle enjoyed immediate success and everyone was happy until . . .

. . . Remington unleashed its 7mm Rem. Mag. It was 1962, the same year the first Walmart opened, John Glenn first orbited the Earth, Marylin Monroe died, and Decca Records turned down the Beatles. Nobody appeared to turn down the 7mm Rem. Mag., though. Here was the same belted magnum case, same length, and same shoulder slope as the .264 Winchester Magnum. Just a slightly wider neck, one that would hold a .284-inch bullet. Subtract .264 from .284 and you enjoy a mere .020-inch-diameter advantage with 7mm Rem. Mag. bullets. Doesn’t seem like much, but Remington wisely offered its new 7mm magnum with bullets as heavy as 175 grains. To hunters familiar with 150- to 180-grain bullets in .270 Winchesters and .30-06 Springfields, that sounded like serious elk, moose, and bear medicine.

Winchester’s heaviest (140-grain) .264 bullet didn’t quite match up. It probably didn’t help that Remington was chambering its new 7mm in its equally new M700 rifle, advertised as “the world’s strongest” (three rings of steel surrounded the cartridge head). If you didn’t mind a push-feed bolt action, the 7mm Rem. Mag. was an easy pick. Throw in the more convenient 24-inch barrel of the 7mm and it was no contest.

 

Winchester is again chambering its controlled-round-feed, sporter M70 in .264 Winchester Magnum.

 

At about this same time, so many bullets had already scorched down the barrels of .264 Winchester Magnums that shooters began to notice early accuracy declines. Many were shooting the rifles fast and furiously at various rodents. After all, the .264 Win. Mag. could fire 85-grain hollow points 3,700 fps and 100-grain projectiles 3,600 fps. With such light bullets, recoil wasn’t bad in an eight-pound rifle—just 15.4 f-p of free recoil energy compared to the 20 f-p of punch with a 140-grain bullet. There’s nothing like blasting big doses of hot powder down a narrow bore in rapid succession to encourage throat erosion. The .264 Winchester Magnum got branded a barrel burner and was soon placed on life support.

But that was then, and this is now. The incredible popularity of the 6.5 Creedmoor has inspired interest in any and all cartridges that spit a .264-inch bullet. Today, we have the 26 Nosler and 6.5-300 Wby. Mag. Both of these burn much more powder in much larger cases than does the .264 Win. Mag. This gives them roughly a 100- to 150-fps muzzle velocity advantage over the .264 Win. Mag. But they also raise an important question: If the .264 Winchester Magnum is a “barrel burner,” what should we call these larger cartridges? Barrel vaporizers?

While we are questioning speed, powder consumption, and barrel life, let’s address this issue with the .264 Winchester Magnum versus the 6.5 Creedmoor. One of the major selling points of the Creedmoor is its conservative consumption of powder and concomitant light touch on bores. On average, 6.5 Creedmoor barrels are supposed to maintain stellar accuracy through 2,000 to 3,000 shots, depending on the barrel steel and how “hot” the barrel was shot. In comparison, some .308 Win. barrels have been reported to remain acceptably accurate for 5,000 shots, some .243 Winchesters just 2,000 shots, .25-06 Rems. 1,500 to 2,500 shots. I’ve heard claims of 600 to 1,000 shots for the 26 Nosler, 1,000 to as many as 2,500 for .264 Win. Mags. This all varies depending on the barrel, whether it was cryo-treated, and how quickly subsequent shots were sent down the tube. The hotter you shoot them, the faster they deteriorate.

 

Some of today’s 6.5s: 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 Creedmoor, .260 Rem., 6.5×55 Swede, .248 Norma, 6.5-280 Imp., 6.5 Rem. Mag., .264 Win. Mag., and 26 Nosler.

 

Obviously, shooters must ask themselves what they value most in a rifle. If you want to shoot 20 rounds in a minute and 200 rounds in a day, you don’t want a fire-breathing magnum. If you want the flattest trajectory, least wind deflection, and most downrange energy for terminating bucks and bulls, you do want the larger-powder-capacity magnum. One to three shots at game every few weeks each fall aren’t going to destroy rifle accuracy until you’ve put a decade or more of hunting behind you, and you should have saved up enough money by then for a replacement barrel. (They make them by the thousands.) Someone once compared throttling back bullet speed to driving your truck 20 mph so the tires would last longer.

Another consideration is how far you wish to target game and whether or not you use a laser rangefinder. Our ability to precisely measure distance-to-target contributes more to the success of long-range shooting than the fastest magnum and highest-B.C bullets. What do we care if we dial an extra few MOA or select sub-reticle six instead of four to score on a long poke?

Now, if you’re old school and like to hunt with MPBR, the flattest-shooting magnum can make a big difference. With a 6.5 Creedmoor sending a B.C. .529 bullet at 2,700 fps, you can aim dead-center on a ten-inch target and hit it clear out to 334 yards. Send that same bullet 3,021 fps from a .264 Win. Mag. and you stay on target all the way to 372 yards.

 

If you need to dial long distance, why not hire a service that will carry your call? .264 Win. Mag.

 

By the way, all these 6.5mm cartridges shoot the same (.264-inch) bullets. The only differences among all them are powder capacity, head and body size, overall cartridge length, and cost. Go with the short ones if you find benefit in a short bolt throw and lighter, more compact rifle at a lower cost per loaded box. Go with the long ones if you want maximum ballistic performance and hang the cost. Go small and short if you want long barrel life, big and long if you want—you guessed it—maximum ballistic performance.

Stated another way, when shopping for ballistic performance in a 6.5mm hunting cartridge, the main thing to compare are average muzzle velocities with any bullet weight. Today’s fashion is to fling the longest projectile with the highest B.C., so let’s compare some muzzle velocities using a reasonably high-B.C. Nosler Custom Competition 140-grain match bullet. There are some hunting bullets out there that are two to seven grains heavier, but this is close enough for consistent comparisons.

We will take this opportunity to gently chide our bullet makers to raise the weight limit on high-B.C. .264-caliber bullets so we can enjoy the long-range possibilities with our higher-velocity 6.5mms. If they can stretch .284 (7mm) bullets to 180 grains, surely they can get .264s to 160 grains. In conformations like Berger VLDs, Hornady ELDs, or Nosler AccuBond Long Ranges, B.C.s might approach an incredible .700. But I’m a hunter, not a metallurgist/bullet maker. Perhaps they can’t draw jackets long enough for that.

Longer bullets will require faster-twist barrels, too. You might want to order your .264 Win. Mag. with a 1:8 or even 1:7 twist barrel. Sierra recently announced an exciting new 150-grain Hollow Point Boat Tail MatchKing. It needs a 1:7½ twist or faster. Matrix Ballistics recommends 1:8 twist for both its VLD 150-grain Match bullet and its 160-grain hunting bullet. Wait a minute! 160-grain? They can build one! And it’s rated B.C. .685. That would be one to try on a .264 Win. Mag. Serious elk, moose, kudu hammer.

Do be aware that some magnum 6.5 shooters are reporting extreme copper fouling with some bullets. They’re also seeing disintegration of light, thin-jacketed bullets at extreme velocities. When you start playing the extreme-velocity game, you can find yourself skating on thin ice.

For comparison purposes, here are some popular 6.5 cartridges showing muzzle velocities with 140-grain bullets (B.C. 529) taken from Nosler Reloading Guide 7. Barrel lengths vary. All zeroed at 250 yards. 500-yard ballistic performance data includes ten-mph right-angle wind. Other reloading guides may list different top-end velocities. Recoil energies are calculated in an eight-pound rifle. Shooters should realize that these top muzzle velocities can vary as much as 100 fps from barrel to barrel, rifle to rifle, but this should provide a good basis for comparison.

 

 

As always, burning ever more powder behind any bullet increases costs in ammo, recoil, noise, and barrel life. But it also maximizes ballistic performance. It’s up to each individual shooter to determine what works for him or her.

From where I sit, the old .264 Win. Mag. is starting to look like a pretty reasonable, middle-of-the-road cartridge in the 6.5mm cartridge lineup. If you’re not fixated on extreme barrel life, short-action rifles, or joining the 6.5 Creedmoor flock, the underappreciated .264 Win. Mag. might be your baby. Just don’t expect to find rifles or ammo on every corner or at discount prices. Check premium brands and semi-custom rifles like Fierce, Bergara, Rifles, Inc., Cooper, Hill Country Rifles, Bansner, etc.

The .264 Winchester Magnum is a cartridge for serious riflemen/women who appreciate its power and reach in the pursuit of big game. I wouldn’t call it a good option for plinking or high-volume target shooting, but if I found a used rifle in good condition at a good price and it was chambered in .264 Win. Mag., I’d probably buy it. Especially if it was a pre-’64 Winchester M70.

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Forgotten Calibers_ 38-55

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Well I thought it was funny!

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M1 Carbine in 8mm Kurz? The Spanish 7.92×33 CB-51

The M1 Carbine is a lightweight, handy weapon that is well-liked by many. One of its weakest points for many people, however, is its cartridge: The .30 Carbine caliber is regarded by some as being too weak to be a true intermediate caliber round fully capable of effective 300m fire.

Still, the .30 Carbine is short, so maybe there is another caliber out there that could fit into an M1 Carbine’s action while giving it a little more punch… It turns out that during the late 1940s and early 1950s, at least one Spanish small arms designer felt the same way, and invented the gun in the Forgotten Weapons video below:

Ian does something a little odd in the video when he identifies the rifle as being “heavily influenced by the M1 Garand”, and continues to repeat that idea several times in the video. He’s not entirely wrong, but… To my eye the rifle looks much more obviously derived from the M1 Carbine, not the M1 (Garand) Rifle.

There are a couple of clues to this: The general style of the action (mechanically similar to both rifles, but aesthetically much more M1 Carbine than Garand), the fire control group, and the mass on the operating rod. Interestingly, in lieu of the tappet gas system, the Mosqueton CB-51 uses a fixed piston with many turbulence-generating rings, that looks inspired by the StG-44.

2b0EIN0

You can see how similar the Mosqueton is to the M1 Carbine below:

M1-Carbine-Animation2

Calling this rifle an M1 Carbine copy isn’t quite doing it justice, honestly (although it makes for a very snappy title). The rifle isn’t in truth a direct clone of anything, although it does seem to take more from the M1 Carbine than anything else. Besides the different gas system, the rifle features an odd grip safety, and a very German-looking front end, as well as stripper clip guides!

It’s worth noting that while this rifle is called “CB-51”, it’s not the only rifle called CB-51. It seems to me that maybe “CB-51” was the name of a trial or a program to which these different weapons were submitted, although that’s only speculation on my part.

Nathaniel F

Nathaniel is a history enthusiast and firearms hobbyist whose primary interest lies in military small arms technological developments beginning with the smokeless powder era. He can be reached via email at nathaniel.f@staff.thefirearmblog.com.

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