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“Saint-Etienne”: a very good bad machine gun


French soldiers in the trenches of the First World War with a machine gun “Saint-Etienne”
– What machine gun do you have?
“It’s called something weird,” said the gypsy.
– That’s it, flew out of my head!
Must be a light machine gun, Robert Jordan thought.
– And what is his weight? – he asked.
– You can carry it alone, but it’s very heavy,
with three folding legs. We got him
on our last major outing. Before wine.
How many ammo for it?
“Death,” said the gypsy. – A whole box
such that you can’t move.

Ernest Hemingway “For Whom the Bell Tolls”

stories about weapons. And it so happened that the Austrian officer, Baron Adolf Odkolek von Augezd (1854–1917) became interested in the design of weapons and in 1889 received his first privilege for a machine gun with an automatic drive from powder gases acting through a hole in the barrel on a piston connected to the bolt.

In addition, unlike the Maxim machine gun, which was gaining popularity at the same time, it had air rather than water cooling of the barrel. As a result, Odkolek received several patents for his developments, tried to create a workable model of his machine gun on their basis in Russia, but … for some reason, nothing came of it, and it all ended with the fact that he decided to offer his developments to the Hotchkiss company .


The same machine gun in the photo of those years, only the situation is clearly not combat …

Hotchkiss himself had already died by this time, but the engineers Vincent Benet and Albert Merce, who worked at his enterprise, appreciated the work of the baron, bought all the patents he registered from him and already in 1895 created a working model of the machine gun of the Odkolek system, which they themselves improved in 1897.


“Saint-Etienne” M1907. Right view. Royal Arsenal, Leeds

The same gun. Left side view

In the meantime, smelling the smell of big money, other French gunsmiths were drawn to the creation of their own national machine gun. And while Benet and Merce were step by step bringing their machine gun to mind, the National Arsenal in Puteaux in 1905 released its own version of the Odkolek and Hotchkiss machine gun. To circumvent the patents they had in their hands, the engineers of the arsenal came up with a machine gun with a muzzle retractable forward, which, when fired, was pushed by the powder gases coming out of the barrel.

The muzzle was connected to the bolt with a long rod through a gear wheel and, when it went forward, the bolt moved back accordingly, and a spring returned it to its place. It was possible to get a rate of fire of 500 rounds per minute, however, despite this, the machine gun turned out to be complex, heavy and capricious and, although it was fired, immediately hit the colonial troops.


The machine gun box was wider than that of the Maxim, but narrower. The photo clearly shows the cocking bolt handle, the brass handle (hollow inside!) And the fire rate retarder switch. Photo forgottenweapons.com

In another attempt to improve existing machine guns, the officers of the Saint-Etienne Arsenal in France created the so-called “Saint-Etienne” model of 1907. This weapon was a compromise between the Puteaux 1905 and the Hotchkiss 1900. But the most interesting thing about its design is that its creators decided to bypass the patent of Odkolek (and Hotchkiss) and changed the direction of the gas mechanism of this machine gun.


The device of the internal mechanism: a rack with straight teeth, a massive gear wheel with a crank, a door and a sight. The USM trigger lever and its spring are located not quite usually, namely above the bolt! Photo forgottenweapons.com

In this photo, the shutter is moved back. The bolt extractor tooth is visible. Below it is the feeder tray, raised up, and another extractor plate with a “tooth”, which removed the cartridges from the tray if necessary. Photo forgottenweapons.com

Instead of pushing the piston back to provide a source of energy to operate it, the gas exiting the bore pushes the piston forward. The piston is attached by a spring-loaded rod to the gear rack. The rack moves forward and drives a massive gear wheel connected to the bolt by means of a crank mechanism. Accordingly, there was a figured groove in the shutter, which included the roller of this crank.

When fired, the gases push the piston forward, compressing the spring and causing the spur gear to rotate clockwise. The roller on the gear rotates with it half a turn, pulling the bolt back. Then the spring, put on the piston, pushes it forward and returns the shutter to the forward position.

Under the bolt is a feeder tray, similar to a similar part in the Winchester rifle. It is hit by cartridges from a metal cassette at the moment when it is located strictly horizontally. When the bolt moves back, it moves with it, while its front part rises to the level of the bore hole. When the bolt moves forward, it sends a cartridge into the chamber, and the feeder tray lowers again to receive the next cartridge from the cassette. The shot was fired from an open shutter. The shutter itself only pressed the rim of the cartridge case against the chamber. The locking of the trunk was not carried out.


The bottom of the box had holes for ventilation. And … so that the dirt that gets into it spills out of it. To what extent such a decision was justified is difficult to say. Photo forgottenweapons.com

The machine gun is easy to distinguish by the heavy and massive brass casting of the receiver. The drive spring, located under the barrel and behind the gas piston, is also clearly visible and not covered by anything, in order to eliminate, if possible, the thermal effect from close proximity to the heated barrel casing.


Gas piston before firing. Photo forgottenweapons.com

Gas piston after firing. Photo forgottenweapons.com

Despite the rather lengthy description, the design of the Saint-Etienne machine gun itself came out not much more complicated than that of the Maxim. Moreover, the designers did everything possible to make it convenient to work with their machine gun. So, it was more convenient to operate with a trigger than with a trigger with two handles. The cocking lever on the left was similar to the handle of a meat grinder, and it worked the same way, moving 180 degrees in a horizontal plane. Access to the mechanisms in the machine gun box was the simplest – an ordinary hinged door.

A device was provided that allows you to change the rate of fire from eight to 600 rounds per minute. This was considered a useful feature in colonial wars when ammunition was in short supply and ambient temperatures were too high. The tripod, equipped with a bicycle seat for the shooter, was also convenient. It would seem that everything was thought out. Massive parts, however, added weight to the machine gun, so that, despite the lack of water cooling, it still weighed more than the same English Vickers, but there was simply nothing to break in it. But still…

"Saint-Etienne": a very good bad machine gun
The sight was very reasonably arranged. The set range figures appeared on this screen. Photo forgottenweapons.com

Traction of the automatic thermal compensator of the front sight. Warming up from the casing, she lifted it with the L-shaped end! Photo forgottenweapons.com

Very soon after the start of operation, “Saint-Etienne” gained a reputation for being unreliable. Without water cooling, like the Maxim, or a massive brass radiator, like the Hotchkiss, it overheated. The overly complicated rack and pinion piston had many parts and had to be kept clean to avoid delays. The spring, openly located under the barrel and subject to all misfortunes, turned out to be short-lived.


In this photo, this l-shaped lever and the spring-loaded front sight are just clearly visible. Photo forgottenweapons.com

In general, the French soldiers who encountered this machine gun in the trenches of the First World War did not like the Saint-Etienne. Perhaps he seemed to them, yesterday’s peasants, too complicated, requiring super-careful care.

As a result, the machine gun was modernized in 1916. He received the possibility of ammunition from a metal tape for 300 rounds and new sights with an automatic front sight height adjuster. Prior to this, heating the barrel casing, on which the front sight was located, could change the point of impact of the bullet, which is also a serious drawback of the machine gun. But, despite all the improvements, the Saint-Etienne machine gun in the troops still replaced the Hotchkiss M1914 machine gun.


A disk with holes of different diameters blocked the hole for the exit of gases from the barrel. It could be turned by the handle protruding from it and thus set the desired degree of pressure on the piston. Photo forgottenweapons.com

TTX machine gun “Saint-Etienne” М1907

Manufacturer: Manufacture d’Armes de Saint-Etienne (MAS)
Principle of operation: removal of powder gases, crank locking
Overall length: 118,1 cm
Barrel length: 71 cm
Caliber: 8x50mm R Lebel (0,33″)
Cassette capacity: 25 rounds
Calculation: 5 man
Date of entry into service 1907
Effective firing range: 1 m
Maximum range: 2 m
Initial speed: 724 m / s
Rate of fire: 60–650 rds/min.
Machine gun body weight: 25,73 kg
Weight with machine: 58,43 kg.

By the beginning of 1917, 39 machine guns of this type had been manufactured.


An absolutely amazing detail, which, by the way, was soon abandoned. Flame Hider! He screwed on the trunk. The gases from the barrel rushed after the bullet, but inside the flat funnel they expanded and were thrown down, resting against the metal apron. Initially, it was believed that such a device would avoid blinding the shooter with flashes of shots and make it easier for him to observe the target, but … this device raised so much dust that they immediately began to remove it from machine guns! Photo forgottenweapons.com

In July 1917, these machine guns were gradually withdrawn from the first line units and transferred to the rear units, colonial troops, as well as the Italian army, the Greeks, and another part was sent to Russia as military assistance to Admiral Kolchak.

In general, it’s amazing, of course. The design thought out to the smallest detail, including those that make life easier for the calculation, the machine gun parts are durable, and they did not spare brass on it, that is, there was nothing special to rust there, but for some reason a good machine gun from Saint-Etienne did not work out …

Author:
Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
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M1906 pistol against the background of its holster. Caliber 6,35 mm (25 ACP).

What I would call a fun gun to shoot at the range but thats about it Grumpy

—————————————————————————————-Do Not carry these weapons,

If you carry it, you may load it….

And if you load it, you may fire it…

And if you fire it, you may hit someone and make them extremely angry,

Such that they’ll do you great bodily harm…

Col. Jeff Cooper circa 1951-52

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Always good solid rules!

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The 11-Year-Old Grizzly Slayer: Elliot Clark and his Remington 870 by WILL DABBS – What a freaking stud. Grumpy

Superman is my personal favorite superhero. However, 11-year-old Alaskan Elliot Clark could beat down the Man of Steel without breaking a sweat.

In a world awash to its gunwales in make-believe spandex-clad superheroes, sometimes it is cool to hear about the real thing. Alaskan brown bears are some of the most formidable predators on the planet, the apex hunters in their natural world. When an Alaskan youth named Elliot Clark faced one of these enormous beasts intent on eating him and his family, this young stud stood his ground, lifted his Remington 870 20-gauge, and put the monster down.

How Scary are Bears Really?

Richard White met his end while trekking alone through bear country in Alaska.

In August of 2012 Richard White, a 49-year-old pharmacologist from San Diego, California, was hiking alone through the vast expanse of Denali National Park. Denali is one of the most pristine tracts of unspoiled wilderness on the planet. It is also home to some legendarily huge Alaskan brown bears.

Bear spray is a particularly intense version of pepper spray formulated to dissuade an angry bear. I’d personally sooner pack a decent gun.

Richard was an experienced hiker who had hiked Denali solo before. However, he carried neither firearm nor bear spray. On his application for a backcountry permit, he listed his primary bear deterrent as a whistle.

A mature grizzly bear in a foul mood is a sight to behold.

Fellow hikers happened upon a bloody backpack near the Toklat River and notified park rangers. The rangers found a large boar grizzly standing guard over White’s remains. The big bear had partially eaten and buried the man. As they lost the light the rangers fired on the bear twice but missed.

Alaskan brown bears get really big.

The following day rangers found the bear still guarding White’s body and dispatched the animal from a helicopter. A necropsy of the 600-pound mature male proved that they had gotten the right bear. They found White’s undamaged digital camera nearby.

A grizzly can hit 35 mph in a sprint. By contrast, Usain Bolt, the world’s fastest living human, can only make 27.

White had photographed the bear that killed him twenty-six times in less than eight minutes. He began shooting pictures at a range of approximately forty yards, but the bear was on him quickly. Richard White left behind a wife and young daughter. Brown bears are remarkably efficient killers.

A Most Extraordinary Young Man…

Rural Alaska is a place of spectacular beauty and wondrous natural grandeur. The fishing and hunting are unsurpassed.

Five years later, 11-year-old Elliot Clark was walking along a trail headed to a familiar fishing spot on Game Creek just south of Hoonah, Alaska, on Chichagof Island. Elliot’s uncle and grandfather were in the lead. His cousin pulled up the rear. Three family dogs screened the flanks.

Elliott kept his 20-gauge Remington 870 close at hand.

Young Elliot was already an experienced Alaskan and fully acclimated to firearms. His uncle slung a serious rifle on his back. Elliot carried his slide-action Remington 20-gauge at port arms. Elliot’s dad was away at the time but had planned on installing a sling on the shotgun when he returned. This becomes pertinent in a moment.

A 20-gauge shotgun has a bore diameter of .615 inches, substantially wider than the bullet in a 50BMG round. A typical 20-gauge slug throws a ¾-ounce lead projectile at a modest velocity.

Elliot carried his shotgun with a round of birdshot in the chamber followed by slugs. The young man had asked his dad the week before for permission to remove the plug from his gun that limited the weapon to two rounds in the magazine. Elliot’s father agreed that he was ready for the upgrade, so his gun packed a full four slug rounds in the tube.

A charging brown bear is a chemical formula for horrifying.

An enormous brown bear appeared without warning and charged the small party. The gigantic animal tossed the two adults clear with ease before focusing on Elliot and his young cousin. Any normal kid might have run or simply frozen in place. Elliot, by contrast, stood his ground between the charging grizzly and his unarmed relative, raised his shotgun, drew a bead, and fired.

Here we see Elliott with the bear he killed. Note the perfectly placed entrance wound on the animal’s snout.

That first charge of 20-gauge birdshot had no discernible effect on the enraged bruin, but young Elliot cycled the gun in an instant. His first slug struck the bear squarely in the nose and tracked down into its neck. Cycling the action again Elliot put his second slug into the animal’s shoulder at bad breath range. The muzzle blast from this third round was close enough to leave powder burns in the giant bear’s mouth. This third shot knocked the animal down, its momentum causing the creature to slide past the two kids. Elliot stepped over to the panting beast and killed it outright with a third slug delivered at contact range.

Elliott Clark, shown on the right, saved his family with a youth model Remington 20-gauge and an unnatural excess of manliness.

I lived for three years in the Alaskan interior. It is a beautiful though unforgiving place of frightening weather and simply breathtaking predators. Firearms are background clutter. Most everybody outside the immediate environs of Fairbanks was typically armed. At an age when most young men are trying to survive sixth-grade social studies, Elliot Clark used his pump-action 20-gauge to singlehandedly save his family from the jaws of Alaska’s apex predator. What a freaking stud.

The Assailant

Grizzlies vary widely in size based primarily upon their habitat and food sources.

The Alaskan brown bear (Ursus arctos horribilis) comes in a variety of flavors. The largest of the lot live in the coastal areas and can attain veritable prehistoric proportions. While I am sure to offend the purist, we shall heretofore refer to all brown bears as grizzlies. A fully-grown peninsular grizzly feeding on clams, salmon, and sedge grass can top out between 800 and 1,200 pounds. This makes the Alaskan brown bear one of the largest land predators on the planet.

It is tough to visualize just how big these animals can become. I have personally seen them in Alaska that taxidermied out to more than nine feet.

Coastal grizzlies can become truly epic specimens. The world record example was killed in 1948 near Cold Bay. This monster was freshly out of hibernation and was therefore devoid of any extraneous fat. It nonetheless weighed in excess of 1,700 pounds and stood nearly ten feet tall. Biologists estimated that this particular bruin would have weighed 1,850 pounds by the end of the following summer.

While grizzlies will eat almost anything they can catch, they are remarkably efficient against man-sized prey. As this unfortunate drunken soul found out the hard way, jumping into the bear paddock at the local zoo on a dare is reliably stupid.

Grizzlies are omnivores, meaning they will eat almost anything. These tremendous animals do actually consume a fair amount of grass. Additionally, it seems the entire state of Alaska is covered with a thin patina of berries. Bears devour these delectable morsels by the basketful. What really makes the animals enormous, however, is fish.

Grizzly bears really like fish. They are remarkably efficient at catching spawning salmon.

Fish-fed grizzlies have raised angling to an art form. They catch spawning salmon in mid-air or pin the slippery fish with their claws. When I worked and wandered deep in the Alaskan bush it was always unsettling to encounter the copious remains of bear-slaughtered salmon littering remote riverbanks.

The Gun

The Remington 870 is truly America’s shotgun. In service for nearly seventy years, there are millions in circulation.

The Remington 870 slide-action shotgun is the most popular shotgun ever made. Since its introduction in 1950 more than 11 million copies have been produced. Offered in 12, 16, 20, 28, and .410 gauges, the 870 has been sold around the world.

The 870’s simple and rugged design has ensured worldwide distribution. This classic slide-action Remington is a popular military and police weapon.

L. Ray Crittendon, Phillip Haskell, Ellis Hailston, and G.E. Pinckney designed the weapon. The gun features right-sided ejection, twin action bars, and a tubular magazine underneath the barrel. Depending upon the configuration this magazine can carry 4, 5, 6, or 7 rounds. Extended magazine tubes can make that number even larger.

The Remington 870 is readily accessorized to meet a variety of missions.

Given the 870’s widespread distribution it is no surprise that the gun has been extensively accessorized. Sundry barrels, stocks, forearms, sights, widgets, and ditzels litter the landscape. Most any version you might want is readily available right here on GunsAmerica.

12-gauge on the right, and 20 on the left. An inexpensive adaptor lets you mix and match stocks between the two platforms.

Early 20-gauge receivers accepted the same stocks as the larger 12-gauge versions. However, since the late 1970’s the 20-gauge guns have used a proprietary stock mounting architecture.

This 20-gauge stock adaptor runs about $30 online.

Adaptors that allow 12-gauge stocks to fit 20-gauge receivers are readily available and cheap.

 

The Norinco HP9 is a Chinese copy of the Remington 870 shotgun.

The basic 870 design has been widely copied. The Chinese Norinco Company produces an unlicensed version titled the HP9. These foreign knockoff guns are typically quite inexpensive.

Personal Connection

This modified short-barreled 870 12-gauge formed the basis of my first gun article some 25 years ago. I never shot a bear with it, but it has claimed more than its share of Mississippi water moccasins.

I packed a short-barreled 870 12-gauge for bear defense when I lived in Alaska. In fact, this gun formed the basis for my first gun magazine article back a quarter-century ago. This particular weapon began life as a standard 870 Express that was a birthday present from my precious wife.

A legal BATF Form 1 conversion on a Remington 870 makes for a fun and economical DIY gun project. I cut this barrel down with nothing more than a hacksaw and a Dremel tool.

I did a BATF Form 1 on the gun to legally shorten the barrel. Back then a Form 1 turned around in a couple of months as opposed to the better part of a year they require today. Once the paper came back approved I shortened the tube with a hacksaw and dressed the muzzle with a Dremel tool. Installing a new front sight bead was a simple chore with a drill press.

The top-folding Law Enforcement Only Remington stock is lyrically inefficient, but it looks just cool as heck.

I tracked down an original Law Enforcement Only top-folding stock and mounted up a sling. That original stock is insanely uncomfortable, but it looks undeniably cool. Thusly configured I packed the gun with sabot slugs and kept it handy when I fished, flew, and explored out where the Wild Things roamed.

Ruminations

These craptastic unwashed reprobates wouldn’t last a week with Elliot Clark in theater.

Elliot Clark is clearly one serious young American. One can only hope that he aspires to become a Navy SEAL or Army Ranger. Once he hits puberty we could just put him in a loincloth, give him a knife, and let him HALO into central Afghanistan. He would have the Taliban defeated within the week.

A long-time native Alaskan veteran of countless moose and bear hunts advised against the use of Dragon’s Breath 12-gauge rounds for bear defense.

I once asked a lifelong Alaskan buddy his opinion of those 12-gauge Dragon’s Breath flamethrower rounds that launch copious flaming magnesium as a possible bear deterrent. He pondered my question and said, “Nope, son, I wouldn’t do that,” stroking his ample whiskers before proceeding. “The only thing I can think of worse than being charged by an angry grizzly bear would have to be being charged by an angry grizzly bear on fire.”

That seemed like sage advice to me.

Here’s my son’s short-barreled Remington 870 20-gauge. We built it up legally together as a Form 1 project when he was about Elliot Clark’s age.
A properly customized Remington 870 makes a splendid general-purpose survival arm.
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I have to give it a B for being creative